I had a browse through some of the search terms that people typed into Google to arrive at my site. Its mostly the same old stuff that has been generating most of my visits for the last 6 years (for some reason Google considers me to be an authority on the parable of the wise and foolish builders). But I always love it when people get here by typing in a question. It somehow makes me feel obligated to provide a reply. So here’s my brief answers to a few of your questions:
Are Newfrontiers a Cult?
There are a surprisingly large number of visitors who arrive at my blog asking this question (or a variation on the theme). Let me answer it for you. No, newfrontiers are not a cult.
In terms of belief, they hold to orthodox Trinitarian Christianity. They hold to no obscure or unique doctrines that are not also shared by many other Christians. In addition, they are not exclusivist, and often work in partnership with other groups of churches (particularly within the evangelical tradition). The leader, Terry Virgo, is not worshipped, nor does he exercise an authoritarian control over the churches – it may come as a surprise to some to note that not all newfrontiers church leaders share his doctrinal distinctives (for example plenty of the newfrontiers pastors in my area are not “reformed”).
Another concern people have over cults is that they are very difficult to leave, or that they attempt to exercise strict control over every aspect of people’s private lives. Neither of these are the case in newfrontiers churches. I am sure that regrettably there are from time to time instances of heavy-handed leadership, but no more so than in other groups of churches (or indeed any business or human organization).
Does the Spirit of God always agree with the Word of God?
Yes. Don’t believe a prophetic message that contradicts the Bible.
Is marriage a sexist view?
No.
Matt Hosier women preachers?
I’m not entirely sure what this question means, but I think the answer is no. To clarify, Matt Hosier is not a woman but he is a preacher. I’ll leave it to him to state his position on women preachers. He does like Twilight though. No wonder he made it onto the false teacher list.
What does shala ba ba mean in tongues?
I’m afraid I don’t have the interpretation. Possibly it means something like “I just really wanna…”
Where to buy sweetheart by driscoll?
Nice to see that someone fell for my April Fool! If you’re wondering what my top post of 2010 was, that was it, by a very large margin.
LOL – that is so funny (better to laugh than cry). Where did you find that false teacher list?! Too much time on your hands obviously!
I was wondering if you had mentioned any women preachers on your blog, so I googled “Matt Hosier” “Joyce Meyer” and that’s what came up!
Hi
I am the one who produced that list. If you read these articles:
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-dominion-and-kingdom-now-theology.html
http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/12/background-to-why-twentieth-century.html
you will see why I produced the list:
Here is the history behind the New Frontiers Movement which shows why it is a dangerous group to be involved in. Basically, it is ecumenical, working with Rome and allowed New Age occultic practices to sweep in. Some time ago I read Terry Virgo’s blog. He did not and will not condemn false revivals like Todd Bentley’s so called Lakeland Revivals. Of course he wouldn’t because New Frontiers are on the frontline of these “experiential” revivals like Toronto.
Here is an excerpt (written before the Lakeland revival) to prove the point from:
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html
“Branching out from their former isolation and tight doctrines, they have become ecumenistic, almost liberal, and are networking with every church group imaginable. The restoration fellowships, together with Elim Pentecostal fellowships, were in the forefront of the Toronto, Promise Keepers and Pensacola controversies, just as they had promoted the Kansas City Prophets earlier on.
Restoration teachings are responsible for infecting almost every branch of British church life, and their goal of full visible unity seems to draw nearer every year, as successive churches succumb to their influence.”
Sorry
I failed to mention that
http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html
gives the full history behind the New Frontiers movement. As I (myself) got drawn into them during the 1980’s and 1990’s I DO know that these things are TRUE.
Hi John,
I have looked a bit at your site, but not by any means read all of it. I am shocked by your suggestion that anyone who fails to share your view on the rapture cannot be saved. Was anyone saved prior to J.N.Darby?
I am well aware of the history of the Restorationist movement in the UK, and would recommend Andrew Walker’s “Restoring the Kingdom” as a good reference for those interested in studying it further.
What evidence do you supply for accusing newfrontiers of “working with Rome” and “New Age occultic practices”? I would agree that some restorationist groups have become ecumenist and “almost liberal”, but neither are charges that are fairly laid at the doors of newfrontiers.
Please read all of the 3 articles I posted as links above first, to get things in the right context. Hopefully, in about 3 or 4 weeks, I will complete my work and post articles which will answer your questions in entirety.
However, for now, let me start by asking some questions:
Does New Frontiers support any of the following: Latter Rain,Manifest Sons Of God,
Word of Faith, Shepherding Movement,Spring Harvest, New Breed,Joel’s Army, New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), Third Wave Movement, Vineyard, Toronto Blessing, Pensacola and Lakeland Revivals, Alpha, TBN,Seeker Friendly
Purpose Driven (Rick Warren), Emerging Church
HillSong, Promise-Keepers, Renovaré
Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries),
Manhattan Declaration, Westminster 2010 Declaration, THE MESSAGE, Lausanne Movement, International Apostolic Council (IAC)
International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)
All of these are ecumenical (ie links with Rome) and some of them have incorporated new age practices. If you are joined to any of these, you are also part of the ecumenical train because these have all been infected by Rome.
Did you know that the history behind the restoration movements came out of the Latter rain movement and was heavily inluenced by the shepherding movement and the Lauderdale 5.
In the 1960’s we had Vatican II ecumenical resolution. From this time onwards, the Vatican have been seeking ways to get protestants back into their fold and have used any means.
1971 The first international charismatic conference held in Guildford in 1971 was described by some as the “Coming of Age of The Renewal” yet it was attended by 40 Lutherans and 30 Roman Catholics and one of the main speakers was Kevin Ranaghan. “Mr Pentecost” David Du Plessis was also there.
In 1972, Cardinal Suenens became intimately involved in the Renewal and introduced it to the Catholic Charismatic movement
In 1974 Martin and Clark teamed up with the ‘Fort Lauderdale Five’ (Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham & Ern Baxter – former secretary to William Branham), who were the founders of the Shepherding Movement, which later became known as the Charismatic Movement (yes, friends, the Shepherding came first!). They were joined by John Poole, another latter Rain adherent. Together these men established a group for ecumenical renewal.
A council was elected whose existence was kept secret as it was not acceptable at the time for Protestants to ‘labour in the Gospel’ with Catholics. For the fledgling Shepherding Movement the money and power of the Vatican were attractive: for Martin and Clark it was a golden opportunity to begin implementing the ecumenical and Charismatic aspirations of Vatican II
I heard from Terry Virgo’s own lips on video, how he supports Toronto and Lakeland and does not condemn the false practices and teachings of the CATHOLIC sent Todd Bentley. If you look at the history (which I will reveal in due course) of Latter Rain you will see it has occultic origins.
You say that New Frontiers is separate from Restoration churches. However, it is easier to get out of the restoration movement than it is to get the restoration movement out of New Frontiers. Terry Virgo is still heavily influenced by his background and shows this by leading New Frontiers down the same path as the Latter Rain, Joels Army, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, New Apostolic Reformation, Promise Keepers are following. No wonder NF follow the false revivals.
If I am wrong, please prove it to me. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming that New Frontiers leadership are influencing the churches to become ecumenical and encouraging everyone to follow the new paradigm of experiences in place of and above what the Bible teaches.
For example C Peter Wagner teaches that new revelation is just as important as revealed Biblical Truth and that “the end justifies the means”. Where does the Bible say that? In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. So deception and using occultic practices is okay if it produces decisions for Christ? NO WAY!
C Peter Wagner has got his fingers in countless pies and seems to be one of the greatest influences of the evangelical and charismatic churches becoming ecumenical in our day.
Quite honestly, the New Frontiers (born out of the restoration movement) has a very questionable foundation and DEFINITELY associates with “so called” charismatic catholics. They are still Catholics and choose to be attached to Rome (even if they are charismatic) and still part of the Vatican II resolution to bring about the unifying of evangelical churches to Rome. If you associate with Rome (in any way) you are ecumenical.
Regarding the rapture:
What I was saying is as follows:
When a person is truly born-again of the HOLY Spirit the Holy Spirit lives within that Christian. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and gives us the revelation that the Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God. The Holy Spirit teaches us from the Bible and confirms that the Bible is spiritual food for our souls and IS TRUTH.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit will not teach a believer that he can ignore any parts of scripture. There are clear scriptures which teach that there will be a rapture (or translation, snatching away, gathered together, caught up in the clouds etc – all mean the same thing). “One man will be taken, the other left behind”. If you choose to ignore all the references to these and state that there will be NO rapture is to deny the Very Word of God which the Holy Spirit would never do – if He was within you.
The scriptures say that “he who does not have the Holy Spirit does not belong to God”. So the one who deliberately rejects clear scripture cannot be led by the Holy Spirit. “Those who are led by the Holy Spirit are sons of God”.
What other conclusion can we come to?
I admit that a born-again believer can still sin. The difference is that a saved believer will never be happy sinning and will always come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. A believer DOES NOT habitually sin in word, deed or thoughts because he wants to please the Lord and because he has become a new creation in Christ and cannot live like that anymore.
If he sins he cannot rest until he confesses it to his Lord. So, what about those who deliberately and habitually twist the scriptures and deliberately teach and practice error, without repentance?
It is true that we may misinterpret scripture, especially difficult subjects like whether the rapture is pre, mid or post. I am not addressing that. But to deliberately reject the entire rapture as unscriptural is wrong and not of God!
As stated in the book of Acts Be a Berean and “check the scriptures daily to see if what I am saying is true”. If I am wrong, please show me from scripture taken in context.
Just to clarify further. I DID NOT SAY that those who hold a different view of the rapture to me are unsaved. I said that those who hold a “NO RAPTURE” view are surly not saved because the scriptures are VERY CLEAR that there IS a rapture or Enoch translation of the church. To deny or reject any parts of the WORD OF GOD is tantamount to rejecting or denying Jesus.
If I am wrong, please prove it.
By the way, Mark, none of my comments are personal to you and when I use the term “you” I am addressing the NF leaders – not Mark.
I would like to thank you for letting me write these things and displaying them on your site.
Bless you
One last thing I need to mention.
Please read the introduction to my list. I made it clear that I was not categorically saying that everyone on my list was a false leader.
I made it clear that the people listed were associated with ecumenical or new age Christian groups. I cannot judge individuals and where they stand before God, but we can judge an organisation if it proves to be unbiblical, ecumenical and heretical.
The individuals are listed to simply show what groups they associate with. It is up to these individuals to decide (facing the evidence being given) if they want to continue their association, but is recommended that they seek the Lord seriously over the issues being presented and check the Bible (honestly) for themselves.
The list is also for those who want to know which leaders to avoid. Now that I have given this information, it is up to these people to make up their own minds which teachers they should or should not listen to.
Hi Mark
I want to correct an error I made (above) item 9
I have now edited the comments on my blog because I realise I gave the wrong impression. This is what my blog now says:
Regarding the rapture:
***(note: I have removed my previous comment on this because I realise that I was wrong in something I said and will now give you a replacement)***
Replacement:
Just to clarify. I DID NOT SAY that those who hold a different view of the rapture to mine are unsaved. I said that those who hold a “NO RAPTURE” view are “probably” not born-again. (I did not say “definitely”)
Reason being, because the scriptures are VERY CLEAR that there IS a rapture (or Enoch type translation of the church. “He was not for God took him”. The same happened with Elijah).
To deny or reject any parts of the WORD OF GOD is tantamount to rejecting or denying Jesus.
If I am wrong, please prove it.
To clarify further:
When a person is truly born-again of the HOLY Spirit the Holy Spirit lives within that Christian. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and gives us the revelation that the Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God.
The Holy Spirit teaches us from the Bible and confirms that the Bible is spiritual food for our souls and IS TRUTH.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit will not teach a believer that he can ignore any parts of scripture.
There are clear scriptures which teach that there will be a rapture (or translation, snatching away, gathered together, caught up into the clouds etc – all mean the same thing). “One man will be taken, the other left behind”.
If anyone chooses to ignore all the references to these and state that there will be NO rapture is to deny the Very Word of God which the Holy Spirit would never do – if He is within a person.
The scriptures say that “he who does not have the Holy Spirit does not belong to God”. So the one who deliberately rejects clear scripture cannot be led by the Holy Spirit. “Those who are led by the Holy Spirit are sons of God”.
I admit that a born-again believer can still sin. The difference is that a saved believer will never be happy sinning and will always come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
A believer DOES NOT habitually sin in word, deed or thoughts because he wants to please the Lord and because he has become a new creation in Christ and cannot live like that anymore. If he sins he cannot rest until he confesses it to his Lord.
So, what about those who deliberately and habitually twist the scriptures and deliberately teach and practice error, without repentance?
It is true that we may misinterpret scripture, especially difficult subjects like whether the rapture is pre, mid or post etc. I am not addressing that.
But to deliberately ignore all references to words which mean rapture and state “there is no rapture” deliberately and habitually closing your heart and mind to this, would indicate a closed heart to God – maybe even not being born-again or “saved”.
I may have given the impression that I believed that everybody who believes in a “no rapture” is unsaved. If so, I apologise. I realise there are some believers who have not been saved long and probably don’t even know of the word rapture. Those who do not know their bibles, may be ignorant about these clear teachings. However, once the (truly born-again) believers have been enlightened of these clear teachings, the Holy Spirit will speak to their hearts about these verses.
The truly saved believer will accept ALL scripture and will not reject anything and therefore, will accept clear teaching.
The unsaved person, once confronted by these truths (if they don’t like what they are reading) will reject it. This is surely one evidence whether someone has truly been born-again or not?
As stated in the book of Acts Be a Berean and “check the scriptures daily to see if what I am saying is true”. If I am wrong, please show me from scripture taken in context.
By the way even the word RAPTURE IS mentioned in the bible.
The word “rapture” comes from Paul’s “caught up” remark in 1 Thes 4:17. The english words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo (from the original manuscripts)which means “to carry off,” “snatch up,” or “grasp hastily.”
The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”, ie meaning being caught up or snatched away (like Enoch and Elijah).
By the way, Harpazo is a derivative of ‘haireo’ meaning to ‘lift up.
Also consider where those alive at the Rapture of the true invisible Church meet The Lord together with the resurrected ‘dead in Christ’; it is in the CLOUDS. The Greek translation of ‘clouds’ is ‘nephelē which is used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness used in The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the O.T.
This is no fluffy, nebulous drift of water vapour; this is part of the ‘shekinah’ the visible ‘glory of God’.
The meeting takes place in the AIR, the atmospheric region surrounding planet earth. It is a sudden event. This is described as imminency, it is an ‘overhanging’ event that could happen at any moment. Paul called it a ‘mystery’ meaning it is not revealed in the O.T., only in the N.T. 1Cor.15:51-54. Jesus comes to rescue His true Church from ‘the wrath to come’. 1Thess.1:10.
The reason I take a strong line on this is because it is the Kingdom Now and Dominionists who preach a “no rapture” view because of their ungodly hidden agendas for World Conquest. They fit into the glove of the NWO and are a return to the ungodly, Babylonic blasphemous days of Vatican rule. They want to return us to the “dark ages” of Catholic dominion which was VERY unChristlike and was clearly led by those who were NOT born-again.
Those who are pushing us to follow back into that dark age are showing similar fruit and behaviours of those dark ages. This is why I ask the question “is it possible that those who deliberately reject the scriptures and twist them to squeeze a false doctrine out are actually not saved?
John I fear that your judgements upon movements and upon individual Christian leaders are more than a little far-fetched. They seem to be judgements that are based upon speculation as to movements or leaders having connections and influences with and from other movements or leaders, which you have read about on a blog, somewhere in cyber space by someone who has way too much time on their hands.
I believe that the majority of names on that list are unjustly placed there. It would be as unjust for me to claim that you are a Catholic because you’ve eaten a pizza once in your life and that pizzas are Italian and (so I hear) there’s a lot of Catholics in Italy. I think you’d agree that allegations like that would be absolutely absurd and you would outraged to hear someone making connections in that way.
I have heard sermons from quite a few of the speakers that you have listed on your site (including the brother who has commented first on this post), I’ve read books by some of them and regularly listen to the podcasts of some. I can honestly say that I know of none of them to be false teachers – I believe they are gifted preachers with good, Christ-centred motives. Should we not look to their fruit? Their words and leadership have led to me understanding God’s word, his love for me, his grace, his character, they have helped me to grow into a mature believer. That is good fruit. This is the same for hundreds of other believers whom I know and have fellowship with.
Have you eaten pizza before? Are you a Catholic? If I wanted to know, I wouldn’t search for a blog post or a website for the answers, I’d ask you. If I heard a speaker saying something which I feared was false. I would LISTEN in depth to what someone was saying, I would THINK it through, weigh it against scripture, speak with trusted wise, godly friends.
Following that, if I still believed that someone was in error I would approach them in the most loving, humble and private way that I could, and tell them that I think they are wrong. I would not post it on a blog for all to see. Is what you are doing really in line with Matthew 18? Please don’t underestimate the influence you have through posting such things on the web, I fear that you may be pulling people away from good, fruitful ministry.
Do you honestly believe that if someone gets one thing wrong theologically that they are automatically a false teacher? Because that would make Peter a false teacher, for he was wrong about somethings: see Gal. 2:11–14. Does this nullify the rest of Peter’s doctrine? Does this mean (as your logic would seem to follow) that all those who associated with Peter or whom were influenced by Peter were wrong and were false teachers by association? Who gives you the right to make such judgements?
I am praying for you John.
My reply to Pizza boy
Let me explain what I mean by “association”:
If a church leader is simply having fellowship with another teacher (from one of those ecumenical or new age infected organisations) without endorsing or teaching their doctrines, that association is NOT what I am talking about and I guess is okay.
However, if that person starts leading one of these groups or start joining in with that ecumenical group (in a unification process) and lead their church down that path of joining those groups or teaching the ecumenical doctrine, then this is a bad association.
It is this type of association that I am warning against. So, if teachers, leaders and prophets are encouraging believers (by their association with those groups and what they teach in support of them) to join these ecumenical or new age groups, then their association is cause of concern.
I also have another use of the word association, to mean signing an allegiance to the ecumenical movement, for example becoming members of ecumenical groups like Westminster Declaration, Manhattan Declaration, Promise Keepers (to name a few).
Everyone on my list has absolutely associated (*in a bad sense) with an ecumenical or new age infected organisation (or both). My blog is in the process of putting together the evidence of this.
Of course I am NOT saying that if anybody gets something theologically wrong that it makes them a false teacher. There is a difference between inadvertently getting something wrong and deliberately leading a church or organisation down the road of Catholic ecumenical heresy.
Dear Pizza boy
You stated that I should gently and lovingly correct a brother on their own. Matthew 18 is referring to a local body of believers and is not talking about leaders or false teachers. It is talking about a brother who has sinned (not false taught) in action or has backslidden. This is only possible to do in a local body of believers who are in close communion with one another.
It is not possible to do this from a long distance apart. However, WE ARE instructed to “test” the spirits (in context referring to the prophet) to see whether they be of God “for many false prophets have gone out into the world” John says. We test them by the WORD OF GOD. Not only is it okay to do this but we are instructed to do so!
Hi Everyone
I am just wondering why my previous attempt on this message was not published? Do i not have permission to reply to someones question? Anyway, if that was an oversight, I respectfully ask if you would please publish it as I am keen to see the replies. This was what I tried to publish:
I just realised that I had not answered a specific question from Mark.
He asked about whether there were true believers before JN Darby introduced the church to the rapture. In answer to that, let us use some common sense thinking.
The Bible was not available to the common man until the 16th Century. The Bible was (up until then) monopolised by the Catholic clergy. They sought to control the people by preaching a Dominionistic, controlling, works theology which had been influenced by the gnostics (now known as new age) from Babylon origins.
Most of the common people (laity) from the 16th Century onwards trusted the protestant bible teachers for their systematic theology of the Bible. Calvin was one such person that the people trusted. However, he actually stated that his teachings came from Augustin as if it was Augustin writing through him. So this means the teachings of Calvin were still very much Catholic in origiin. Augustin was a gnostic before he became a Catholic and brought gnosticism into the church but with “christian” names. Basically Babylon religion taking over the Catholic church.
How can we trust Calvin if he taught from a gnostic Catholic?
Anyway, as the laity were still for centuries later (in most part) trusting the leaders for their theology, rather than studying the Bible direct for their theology, it took a long time for the old truths of the Bible to be restored to the church. The Anabaptists were such a group who DID read the Bible for themselves and were put to death by the Calvinists because they disagreed with Calvinism.
JN Darby was just one man (amongst others) who opened up the long lost truths that the early church knew about and practiced. The rapture is a CLEAR truth within the scriptures for those who read it. Calvin introduced Augustins gnostic ideas of Covenant theology and election. The reformed church became brainwashed into this theology. They were so brainwashed that it was extremely difficult to notice what the Bible ACTUALLY taught.
I come back to my point in closing, If believers are ignorant of what the Bible teaches about the rapture because of their Calvinistic or Arminian (rather than BIBLICAL) conditioning then they are excused for not believing in the rapture. However, for those (especially bible students) who read about the rapture and then choose to “spiritualise/allegorise” the clear truths away, I question the spirit within them.
Oh sorry, it seems that it went through okay this time. Thanks