Also, I don’t know if you got a chance to hear Stef Liston’s talks, in which he made an impassioned plea to be more ready to receive contributions and let the Spirit take the lead in our meetings and make them a little less prepared and predictable. Again though, I feel that the simple group dynamics of having more than 150 or so people present can present practical difficulties that hinder that approach

I’ve sweated over whether to reply at all but …

… the Sunday referred to by Dan was not an exception.

Although no longer living in Brighton, I occasionally go to these meetings again and I am reasonably confident in asserting that it is very much the norm.

If large meetings result in the absence of body ministry (do we actually believe that!), then why are we doing it? If this is the direct result then and when leaders conferences take place why is there quite so much contribution from the front – are they operating on a higher plane of spiritual gifting and flow?

John Piper wrote a fantastic book a few years ago called ‘Brothers we are not professionals’, I think within many aspects of New Frontiers of which I am aware (this is obviously limited), we are increasingly ‘running’ churches as though there were professionals (and by inference – amateurs who can simply pitch-up).

I have no answers, but my starting position is that we are a corporate people marked by the presence of God – how else will they know we walk with God? A people, a body, a house. I find Bonhoeffer, N.T. Wight, Moltmann, Jim Wallis and others listed within the more frowned-upon ‘Emerging’ sector to be voices to which we must not close our ears on this topic.

I think that interesting years lay ahead – and anticipate that whist we move ‘forward’ in many areas (Bethel Church’s example on the supernatural comes to mind), a rediscovery of many of the values and discoveries which were so formative for Terry also lay ahead – with these may well come many of the challenges that Terry and my fathers generation faced.

I trust on such a journey that we will receive love and grace to continue to love to all our brothers – wherever their influences most lay.

In love,

a brother.

In these sort of conversations it’s easy to take the best arguements from our own preferred point of view, and compare it with the worst of an alternative view.

I hope that the New Frontiers leadership can avoid this, I was part of a New Frontiers church plant for 3 years, and was “moved on” because I wanted to explore a point of view the was different from the local leadership. I wasn’t asking for new theology to be preached, condoned or even mentioned publicly, just a recognition that there are alternative views which should be understood & tested.

I hope your post is received and engaged with in a spirit of openness.

Yes thanks Mark, you are right for that reminder. I’m still wrestling with the growth = less spontaneous gifts being brought. It may be what happens but is it right? Rob Rufus allowed a uncensored prophecy mike at Glory and Grace in Hong Kong (no getting through Nigel Ring and then Dave Holden and then Terry!).

And guess what? There was no heresy to correct, I think about once he very reluctantly ended the flow of the prophetic because he said “It could go on all day”. I wonder if sometimes it’s our fear that puts a stopper on the prophetic flow rather than the Spirit.

I was quite surprised at the changes in CCK itself since I have last been there. I think we last went to CCK when Rob Rufus was preaching just before “TOAM 07″ and the emphasis was very much on the Presence of the Spirit and manifest signs, wonders and miracles.

I noted today that there were no “contributions” or “spiritual gifts” brought during the worship. The lighting was very low with coloured spotlights on the stage, and the names of both Mark Driscoll and Tim Keller got mentioned along with a huge emphasis on “mission” both during the worship, notices and in Terry’s sermons.

There was a brief mention at the end during the benediction by someone (not sure who he was) who said that prayer would be available for those who needed healing or were interested in the gift of tongues while everyone else went for cups of tea.

Personally I found it saddening – seeing as I’ve been at CCK during times when the Presence of God was so weighty that you had to sit down. The question I found myself pondering was this; In the book of Acts were the church so full of the Presence of God that the surrounding community broke the doors down (metaphorically) to get in? Or was the emphasis so militantly on getting out?

Its useful to note that the best thing about the emerging scene are that they’re asking questions about key areas – addressing those with the right answers has to be a way forward.